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 Post subject: ARC Tailed Dogs "Judge Blacklist"
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:06 pm
Posts: 85
Location: Laura Rosinski, Washington State
The Rotten 1 wrote:
Makes me wonder if there is any truth now to the notorious ARC BLACKLIST... :lol:


PLEASE don't say it's an ARC blacklist !! It's the "Rottweilers R Docked" blacklist !! And yes, they have one.

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Location: Tommy Stark, St. Simons Island GA
what is that?

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von der Stark

Multi V-1, Multi Y. Sieger, BOB, BOG, NIRK Y.Ch. Konigliche Bhaji v.d. Stark CGC, RN, HIT(s), HIC, TDI, RTD, ARV BBT, CHIC #66928

V1 Rated, 2x BOG, r.BOG, First Choice v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1, RN, HIT(s), HIC, CGC, TDI, RTD, CHIC #65530

Multi V-1 First Class v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1 cardiac-normal, OFA "Good"

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Imma von der Stark


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:30 pm 
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What...........the "Rottweilers R Docked" group? Or the blacklist?

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Roslar Rottweilers


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Location: Tommy Stark, St. Simons Island GA
both...im curious

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Tommy Stark
von der Stark

Multi V-1, Multi Y. Sieger, BOB, BOG, NIRK Y.Ch. Konigliche Bhaji v.d. Stark CGC, RN, HIT(s), HIC, TDI, RTD, ARV BBT, CHIC #66928

V1 Rated, 2x BOG, r.BOG, First Choice v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1, RN, HIT(s), HIC, CGC, TDI, RTD, CHIC #65530

Multi V-1 First Class v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1 cardiac-normal, OFA "Good"

Multi V-1, 9x BOB Ara Brcko Star HD-A/ED-0 cardiac-normal *retired*

Imma von der Stark


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Location: Rebekah James, NC, USA
Cindy wrote:
Rebekah,

Would you mind sharing why these judges get such small Rottweiler entries?


Most judges get entries based on what/how they have judged in the past, plus word of mouth feedback. Past assignments are public record at AKC.

Most people who show dogs learn what judges generally like and dislike. For example, don't take a dog with a light eye to Bob Busby, or a dog without a strong head piece to Joe Hedl.

You also quickly learn which judges look up the lead and which ones don't, and also which ones respect the standard, and which ones don't.

Travel and entry fees are too expensive these days to make entries and trips where you don't have any reasonable chance of getting the points.

JMO as always.

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Rebekah James
Champion and Obedience titled Rottweilers
ALWAYS owner handled and trained.
All remarks are my opinion only.

SUCCESS is the best revenge.


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AKC CH from Bred By with all MAJOR WINS at 12 months old
AKC GCH at 15 months old by going BOSS at GRC 12/15/2011
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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:49 pm 
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Location: Laura Rosinski, Washington State
The RRD group was started a few years ago, when said group thought that the AKC ring would in inundate with tailed Rottweilers, after Germany banned docking. They were hell bent about keeping tailed Rottweilers out of the AKC ring.

About 24 judges signed a peitition (along with a couple hundred ARC members) that they would NOT support tailed dogs, and as judges, they would never place a tailed Rotweiler in their rings.

They tried to get the Rottweiler standard changed to say "Disqualify tails", and AKC wouldn't allow that. They put about half a dozen ads in some of the show magazines, and spent TONS of money with all of this, saying "The Rottweiler is a DOCKED Breed".

They started up this "Blacklist" of judges who had pointed, placed any tailed Rottweiler. If the judged didn't excuse a tailed dog, they were added to the list.

This group has died down in the last couple of years, but they're still out there.


What I'm looking forward to is how many of them bail out of the breed, when we are no longer allowed to dock. I see that coming in the next 3-4 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Location: Tommy Stark, St. Simons Island GA
oh...well shit...thats probably the list i have...hahahahahh..i dont call it a blacklist...i call it my awesome open minded, lemme look at the dog, tails arent that bigga deal list!!

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Tommy Stark
von der Stark

Multi V-1, Multi Y. Sieger, BOB, BOG, NIRK Y.Ch. Konigliche Bhaji v.d. Stark CGC, RN, HIT(s), HIC, TDI, RTD, ARV BBT, CHIC #66928

V1 Rated, 2x BOG, r.BOG, First Choice v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1, RN, HIT(s), HIC, CGC, TDI, RTD, CHIC #65530

Multi V-1 First Class v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1 cardiac-normal, OFA "Good"

Multi V-1, 9x BOB Ara Brcko Star HD-A/ED-0 cardiac-normal *retired*

Imma von der Stark


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Location: Kenny Austin, Lewisport Kentucky USA
To some degree I agree with Rebekah. It indeed is a lot of money to go to a show. But, Joe Hedl puts up tailed Rotts, know that for a fact.

I am not against docking, but if one chooses to own a tailed Rottweiler, they deserve an equal a chance as a docked one; this is the USA and we have the freedom to choose. That freedom to choose needs to be respected.

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Location: Tommy Stark, St. Simons Island GA
well its with any judge, any venue, any breed....judges are going to have their pet peeves and things they like to see....i mean thats not rocket science....

but you still havent answered why you think these particular judges get low entries...and from what i see...they dont get small entries...maybe over the past 2 or 3 years they have dropped off a bit but it seems like a lot of the judges that i looked at have had a drop off...dont know if its from new judges or if its just a drop off in general

I take that back about Sue...she had 58 entries IN YOUR HOME STATE...just 8 months ago....

and if you knew where watkinsville, GA was you would know its not set up for a large show....only had around 6 rings...

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Tommy Stark
von der Stark

Multi V-1, Multi Y. Sieger, BOB, BOG, NIRK Y.Ch. Konigliche Bhaji v.d. Stark CGC, RN, HIT(s), HIC, TDI, RTD, ARV BBT, CHIC #66928

V1 Rated, 2x BOG, r.BOG, First Choice v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1, RN, HIT(s), HIC, CGC, TDI, RTD, CHIC #65530

Multi V-1 First Class v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1 cardiac-normal, OFA "Good"

Multi V-1, 9x BOB Ara Brcko Star HD-A/ED-0 cardiac-normal *retired*

Imma von der Stark


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:00 pm 
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Location: John George, Seekonk, Massachusetts
Great job Tommy keep it up!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:00 pm 
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Location: Rebekah James, NC, USA
The Rotten 1 wrote:
To some degree I agree with Rebekah. It indeed is a lot of money to go to a show. But, Joe Hedl puts up tailed Rotts, know that for a fact.

I am not against docking, but if one chooses to own a tailed Rottweiler, they deserve an equal a chance as a docked one; this is the USA and we have the freedom to choose. That freedom to choose needs to be respected.


There is no freedom to choose with regard to a Breed Standard. If there is, there is no need for any standard.

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Rebekah James
Champion and Obedience titled Rottweilers
ALWAYS owner handled and trained.
All remarks are my opinion only.

SUCCESS is the best revenge.


^2XMBBIS RMBBIS UCH 3XHIT UCD CH Eternal Moon Finders Keepers RN CD TT TDI CGC^
V-1 IABCA BBX BPIS 2X RBPIS JA Nat/Int'l CH Multi Gr 1 UCH HIT URO1 Multi BOS Multi BSW 2XAOM 4XBOSS GCH Redyre Extra Spicy, RN CD CA TT CGC
AKC CH from Bred By with all MAJOR WINS at 12 months old
AKC GCH at 15 months old by going BOSS at GRC 12/15/2011
Multiple Group placer at 25 months
Bronze GCH at 26 months
#8 bitch, conformation, 2012
Top Ten Novice Obedience 2013

'14 AIRK NS BPIS BPIG Redyre Full Fandango
Redyre High Society


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:50 pm
Posts: 316
Location: Kenny Austin, Lewisport Kentucky USA
Tell me, do you like to hear the screams of the puppies being docked? I don't.

I guess I have reached a point in my life that I am tired of things suffering, and for what? A little glory? My grand-kids don't understand why they have to have their tail lopped off. I agree with them, I don't understand any more why a pup has to feel pain for the sake of vanity.

What is the lesser of the evils...A docked dog missing teeth or a tail? The same tail that allows other to better gauge the mood of that dog.

Women have plastic surgery for the sake of vanity, more often than not. To me Mother's (Women) are beautiful simply because they are.

It is sad that we have to equate cutting and surgical procedures for vanity. Love those for what they are, as they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:02 am 
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Posts: 188
Location: Cindy Hiser, Indiana
Rebekah,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. However, it doesn't answer the question of why you think these judges get such small Rottweiler entries. I will respect your decision in declining to answer. I was simply curious to why you felt that way. I wasn't trying to start an argument. I am not like that. I knew I had heard of Mr. Vandiver and that piqued my curiosity. After reading the post, I went to the AKC website and reviewed his past assignments. I then realized that he judged at a show near me which I attended, but did not show in (which had NOTHING to do with who the judges were.) I noticed also that he judged the Boxers, Bullmastiffs, Newfoundlands, and Akitas at Westminster this year as well.

You mention that some judges will place dogs based on who is handling them. I agree with that. At an AKC show this year, handlers next to me were remarking unhappily that the judge in the ring sure wasn't placing dogs based on structure. I politely asked them why a certain dog in particular won their class. Their collective reply was that the handler would definitely have a picture taken with the judge and it would appear in several publications resulting in many more assignements for that judge.

Kenny,

Unlike a woman, the puppy isn't making the choice :( . It's humans that are making the choices for the dogs. Just like humans choose to MAKE their dogs overweight to win in the showring :roll: . And we're supposed to have more intelligence and reasoning ability of the two species :roll: :roll: :roll: . I hate to see any animal used as a vehicle for a human's ego, no matter the venue or situation.

The Rotten 1 wrote:
Love those for what they are, as they are.

What wonderful words for humans to live by. True when referring to all life forms. Our dogs sure love us for what we are, as we are. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:04 pm
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Location: Dana McMahan (Williams), California
Roslar wrote:
The RRD group was started a few years ago, when said group thought that the AKC ring would in inundate with tailed Rottweilers, after Germany banned docking. They were hell bent about keeping tailed Rottweilers out of the AKC ring.


Shoot I'm drawing a blank but this had to be like 5 years ago... but do you remember what the group was called? It was like Coalition of 9 or something like that?? I remember getting multiple letters in the mail regarding information to try and persuade me to vote to make the tail a DQ. I'm sure I have the letters somewhere still.

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:57 pm 
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What I find so amusing is every-one's sudden moral consciousness in regards to the tail. Since 1931 when AKC first recognized the Rottweiler no one had an issue with docking until the standard was changed by the ADRK. Not because they suddenly felt it was wrong but because they were forced to change it. If everyone felt so strongly about docking what was stopping all the pro-tail people from stopping this long ago? It's really only been the last 5 years or so that the tail issue has gained much traction here in the US. Where were the cries of injustice in say 2000?

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Excalibur v. Herrschaft SchH3,FH,StP.3,BH,TD(Not the hardest dog but never ran!)
Breitta v. Schwarzen Kobold BH, TR1
Argus von der Aunkst SchH3,BH,AD

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great
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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:33 am 
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Location: Amy A. Swaby, Savannah, GA/Nassau, Bahamas
I really don't care one way or the other. I have no issue with docking but I do have ALL tailed dogs. I import my dogs, so sad, too bad. I'm not crying about it. I'm going to stay away from shows (participating) because it' ridiculous enough reading about it on boards much less getting crap for it at a show as if I'm trying to make some political statement. I just do not care, if people really wanted to gripe they should have dobermans. Now they just look silly with ears :lol:

It's 5 am so I'm probably not making a very good point but, people can argue all they want, some people don't have the choice, many of us import dogs from said people with NO choice. When I need a dog 6+ months with good drive most of the time my findings are in Europe. Why in God's name do I have to take hell for it because I import? (Well really all my dogs are imported, not really many COE breeders in The Bahamas and dogs yes have to be 6+ months to bring them in)

I love the breed for their personality, for their strength, part of it is the looks yes. But for the people griing about the pain of docking I do have one question. Puppies are also in a good deal of pain when they have dewclaws removed, and heaven I can TELL you my puppy made a lot more noise getting microchipped than any puppy I have held during docking. Will you stop removing rear dewclaws because it causes the puppies pain and is also just aesthetics? Just a question :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:24 am 
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Quote:

I love the breed for their personality, for their strength, part of it is the looks yes. But for the people griing about the pain of docking I do have one question. Puppies are also in a good deal of pain when they have dewclaws removed, and heaven I can TELL you my puppy made a lot more noise getting microchipped than any puppy I have held during docking. Will you stop removing rear dewclaws because it causes the puppies pain and is also just aesthetics? Just a question :wink:


Actually, taking off rear dews is the one we hate the most and it is one puppies make the biggest fuss over. Especially, the ones that have bones attached to the hock and you have to dig the bone out. Yet, I don’t see any rear dews on dogs despite certain lines still strongly producing them. Docking for us is far less stressful. We band the tails the same day their born and hardly hear a peep from them. I think for all those who are concerned about the pain and suffering, make a statement and start leaving your rear dews. Who knows maybe they will revise the standard to make allowance for that. After all they are born with them. We have both tailed and docked dogs and we catch it from both the pro tail and the pro dock groups. As far as cruelty goes, I think those ultra short muzzles so popular today, cause greater discomfort for our Rott through out the life of the dog because of the inability to breath or dispense body heat properly than not having a tail. Our own vanity is the reason those are bred for. It sure isn't to the benefit of our Rott or his ability to function.

JMHO.
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:49 am 
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Location: Liz Crawley, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
Boomer wrote:
What I find so amusing is every-one's sudden moral consciousness in regards to the tail. Since 1931 when AKC first recognized the Rottweiler no one had an issue with docking until the standard was changed by the ADRK. Not because they suddenly felt it was wrong but because they were forced to change it. If everyone felt so strongly about docking what was stopping all the pro-tail people from stopping this long ago? It's really only been the last 5 years or so that the tail issue has gained much traction here in the US. Where were the cries of injustice in say 2000?


There was definitely discussion going on - I just checked archives for rottie-L and there are hundreds of posts on docking back in 2000, including posts from people arguing against it. Lira was one of the first tailed US puppies I recall and she was born in September of 2001, so there had to have been SOME sort of discussion going on in 2000. The last litter we docked was born in July of 2002.

Liz

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:39 am 
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But there was nothing as inflaming as today IMO. 5 years ago natural tailed dogs were still the minority in the Sieger ring much less litters being left natural.

My point is before the ADRK was forced to change the breed standard where were all the people now taking the moral high ground? I mean was docking somehow less "wrong" to do before they were forced to change? I really haven't heard of any in depth studies of tail docking being performed. First I hear the FCI and country of origin argument then it becomes an issue of the trauma to puppies. As stated owners/breeders do many things that are almost or just as involved as docking. The rear dew claw removal. Why remove them yet leave the fronts? Micro-chipping I have no doubts hurts like hell and I'm pretty sure tattoos aren't painless. Owners spay and neuter dogs all the time for no other reason than for their convenience.

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Excalibur v. Herrschaft SchH3,FH,StP.3,BH,TD(Not the hardest dog but never ran!)
Breitta v. Schwarzen Kobold BH, TR1
Argus von der Aunkst SchH3,BH,AD

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great
pleasure.'" Clarence Darrow

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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Location: Tommy Stark, St. Simons Island GA
i just had a good idea....how to eliminate Elbow and Hip Displaysia problems....we just cut the dogs legs off...then no injury.....how can dog hurt foot or leg or worry about dew claws if we just cut off their legs....they will look like worm and we can just band the legs and they wont ever have pain....

we can enter then in akc and say that it was possible for injury and its purely cosmetic....the new rottweiler... a wormweiler...

A potential FCI judge tells me a dog without a tail is a dog without legs......

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Tommy Stark
von der Stark

Multi V-1, Multi Y. Sieger, BOB, BOG, NIRK Y.Ch. Konigliche Bhaji v.d. Stark CGC, RN, HIT(s), HIC, TDI, RTD, ARV BBT, CHIC #66928

V1 Rated, 2x BOG, r.BOG, First Choice v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1, RN, HIT(s), HIC, CGC, TDI, RTD, CHIC #65530

Multi V-1 First Class v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1 cardiac-normal, OFA "Good"

Multi V-1, 9x BOB Ara Brcko Star HD-A/ED-0 cardiac-normal *retired*

Imma von der Stark


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Quote:
A potential FCI judge tells me a dog without a tail is a dog without legs......


Interesting! What does this "POTENTIAL" fci judge think our breed was for the first 400 years prior to 1998?

Amused!
Steve

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Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - M Twain

It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinion that makes horse races. - M Twain

Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. - T Eliot

Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us. - E Nightingale




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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Location: Diane Richardson, Unity, New Hampshire
I find this entire argument rediculous

This is America and we have the freedom of choice.

You want docked Rotts? Then as long as the tail is docked in the first 7 days humanely you can. You want tailed Rotts, you can have that too. You want front dewclaws removed then fine take them off in the first 7 days (or when anesthetised at older age). you want front dewclaws to remain then fine leave them

You want to show a tailed dog in AKC, fine do so. Sometimes you will win and sometimes you won't

I personally do not see the big deal

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Location: Sina Norris, Hampstead, North Carolina
It just kinda amuses me that one of our client's just imported a German Shorthair pointer puppy, DOCKED straight from Germany.

So why all the hoopla over there about the tails on rottweilers when the other breeds are still being docked? Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.

I agree with Diane. tailed, no tails....show them.... maybe you'll win.. maybe you won't.....

Why should Germany tell the rest of the world what to do??? That's what's happening. that's the bottom line. Wow, wasn't Hitler from Germany?

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:05 am 
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luv4rotties wrote:
Wow, wasn't Hitler from Germany?


And Godwin's Law has been invoked.
Good lord can we have some class an not compare something as stupid as arguing over dog tails to Hitler and mass genocide?

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:17 pm 
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I have to comment on this one. Mainly the pain associated with docking. I have done every litter of puppies. Either my husband holds, or if he is not around a good friend. To say taking a dewclaw off is more pain that is totally crazy. I have docked most of my litters. And recently started banning. Neither is pain free or stress free. I have to take the bitch out of the house turn up the music to drown out the puppy cries. Then once done the bitch is brought back into the box. In horror to find her puppies are in pain and extreme discomfort. She usually whines and some of my bitches start shivering. Also they will try to push the puppy around to try to clean or just check what the discomfort is all about. Also the discomfort and crying can go on for hours. I have even had puppies refuse to nurse. I have been in this breed for many years. And When there were no options years ago I still docked but believe me my anxiety for that 3rd day rolling around was not pretty. Ask the husband who always got the brunt of my anxiety. Now being a member of the USRC and it being part of the FCI, I am elated not to do my tails. And once you broaden your horizons and look at dogs all over the world, with natural tails it became the next step. I should say for myself. That is the great thing about America freedom of choice. Yes in Germany animal activist did get the upper hand, and they did lose the the right to dock. They are the Country of origin. They are the only ones who can change the standard. So for me a rottweiler is a natural tailed breed. I just hope that the arc can realize that Canada found the solution to the tail in there standard. Letting docked and natural tailed compete together. We all know how much the akc needs more revenue. I see it helping everyone. The exhibitors who would like to show and campaign there tailed dogs too. America should not be about any kind of prejudice. Home of the free and now wagging rottweiler tails. Well for me. God Bless Jane Hobson

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:03 pm 
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There was no one forcing you to ever dock Jane. That was entirely your decision. USRC is not part of the FCI.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Oh I am sorry I meant IFR!!! Whoops!! And No I was not forced. I did it gladly!!! And so much happier for it!! Thank you for the correction!! God Bless Jane Hobson

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:42 pm 
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No one forced me to dock. I docked according to the standard???? That was the standard of the country of origin. When changed, and I came to my own change of what I perceive was following that standard. Now a Natural Tail!!!! As per country of Origin. Keith have you bred??? Have you docked?? Why if you have really have no interest in either side voice a opinion??? It seems to me you go with the wind. You don't care about tails, and you don't care about docking. Why even comment on something that has no affect to you other then hearing your self on this forum. God Bless Jane Hobson

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:44 pm 
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No one forced me to dock. I docked according to the standard???? That was the standard of the country of origin. When changed, and I came to my own change to following that standard. Now a Natural Tail!!!! As per country of Origin. Keith have you bred??? Have you docked?? Why if you have really have no interest in either side voice a opinion??? It seems to me you go with the wind. You don't care about tails, and you don't care about docking. Why even comment on something that has no affect to you other then hearing your self on this forum. God Bless Jane Hobson

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:59 pm 
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gijanerotts wrote:
I have to comment on this one. Mainly the pain associated with docking. I have done every litter of puppies. Either my husband holds, or if he is not around a good friend. To say taking a dewclaw off is more pain that is totally crazy. I have docked most of my litters. And recently started banning. Neither is pain free or stress free. I have to take the bitch out of the house turn up the music to drown out the puppy cries. Then once done the bitch is brought back into the box. In horror to find her puppies are in pain and extreme discomfort. She usually whines and some of my bitches start shivering. Also they will try to push the puppy around to try to clean or just check what the discomfort is all about. Also the discomfort and crying can go on for hours. I have even had puppies refuse to nurse. I have been in this breed for many years. And When there were no options years ago I still docked but believe me my anxiety for that 3rd day rolling around was not pretty. Ask the husband who always got the brunt of my anxiety. Now being a member of the USRC and it being part of the FCI, I am elated not to do my tails. And once you broaden your horizons and look at dogs all over the world, with natural tails it became the next step. I should say for myself. That is the great thing about America freedom of choice. Yes in Germany animal activist did get the upper hand, and they did lose the the right to dock. They are the Country of origin. They are the only ones who can change the standard. So for me a rottweiler is a natural tailed breed. I just hope that the arc can realize that Canada found the solution to the tail in there standard. Letting docked and natural tailed compete together. We all know how much the akc needs more revenue. I see it helping everyone. The exhibitors who would like to show and campaign there tailed dogs too. America should not be about any kind of prejudice. Home of the free and now wagging rottweiler tails. Well for me. God Bless Jane Hobson


So. does this mean your not going to leave the dew claws on? :D

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:59 am 
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The ADRK standard went into effect in 2000 but now it's important to you, and to think you were in such a turmoil just 5 months ago when you found out the ban on tail docking was immediate. How many litters have you had and docked since then? You sure want to go down the "go with the wind" path? It took the USRC joining the IFR to change your mind about docking? Here in the US the ARC/AKC sets the standard not the ADRK/FCI.

How exactly do you come up with I don't care about docking or not? Because I don't breed or that I own both docked and natural dogs? I don't care which someone chooses, what I'm concerned about is someone that wants to cry a river of tears because the AKC standard calls for a docked dog and they don't get a fair shake in the AKC show ring. They want the rules changed just for them because they choose to follow the country of origin standard. Good for them, then either show where that standard is embraced or stop complaining. You stated that this is America and we're free to choose, you are absolutely correct but this also is a country that democracy rules.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:11 am 
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Keith, Do you work for the ARC? You seem to be there number one advocate. To reply to the question yes it did take the USRC becoming part of the IFR for me to comply with natural tails. If I was not a member of the USRC and this rule came up, I would have never searched out the correct decision for my breeding program. For me it is natural tails. I was stating my experiences with tail docking. Not crying about it just exposing the facts related to my experiences. Most breeder drop their litters off at the vet and conveniently pick up a docked litter. They have no idea what is involved. I as a akc handler who has finished many dogs in many breeds, I still show clients rottweilers in the ring. Most all are docked. When my client comes to me with a tailed rottweiler, I would love to show there dog with out prejudices. The only way for that is to address the standard, here in America, for both docked and natural tails. And lets not forget we do have a German breed. (Country of Origin)! Also AKC need the revenue. If we could show 5 % tailed dogs that could help their revenue!!!!! Unfortunately the ARC should really care more about working temperaments then that natural tail on the rottweiler. Please as we own a working breed. And we see how far the working dog sport was in practice. At least the doberman club and German shepherd club put on multi trials. The ARC could not put one on! We have bigger problems then cosmetic tails. Maybe some of those tailed imports and American bred dogs could show what correct temperament and drive is in the akc ring, for people to have the option to breed to. They won't see a working rottweiler at a schutzhund trial, or Working dog trial. But what a great opportunity to get hands on a nice working German or American bred rottweiler. (Natural Tail) This will be my last post on this subject. I really can't believe how time consuming this is. I have dogs to train and puppies to raise Tails and All!!!! God Bless Jane Hobson

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:38 am 
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I just understand the hesitation to change to standard to allow tails.....then all of this would be over! It has nothing to do with an injury, it has nothing to do with a health problem, it has nothing to do with anything except a look. Things change....embrace change....

I just think the real underlying problem is the ARC/AKC advocates for a docked breed are scared of two things: one, an extra fault. two, they have no idea what their long lineage they have created over the past 50+ years will produce as far as tail carriage goes. improper tail carriage - not set - is an extension of the spine and proves to show the alignment of the spine and with strong lateral deviation to either the right or left show a misalignment of the spine...so it is hiding a health issue to dock.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:50 am 
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Does anyone have any data on the influence of animal rights activists on the ADRK's decision to stop docking? Or their influence on any other German breed (Boxer, Dobie, Schnauzer, etc)? Just wondering :) .

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:03 am 
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The docking/cropping is a law in Germany which crosses over to all dogs. There are some exceptions made for hunting dogs I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:14 am 
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I bet a dime to a donut hole that all the people wanting a duel standard when it comes to the AKC won't utter a sound when dogs that are docked and born after 12/31/2011 will no longer be allowed in the USRC ring.

Great googly moogly.... now it's to hide a health issue if people dock. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:50 pm 
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You keep forgetting one thing... We are all hoping to get number 1 dog... At least to get noticed by the rottweiler world. The only way to do that - ADRK show. The ONLY way to be there - dog with the tail.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:54 pm 
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Boomer wrote:

Great googly moogly.... now it's to hide a health issue if people dock. :roll:



it's not intended to hide one....but if you dock...you'll never know if you dog has a spinal problem without xrays....

Why exactly do you think it's a disqualifying fault? for shits and giggles?

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:31 pm 
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So now after eons of docking you're saying without xrays all those hundreds of thousands and more than likely millions of Rottweilers may have had spinal problems? In 24 years I've owned 8 docked Rottweilers and not a one had any spinal issues. Nada.

Kink tails can sometimes be associtated with a potential spinal problem. Just because a dog has a kink tail doesn't mean it automatically will have spinal problems. Ring tail with strong lateral deviation is not connected with the vertebrae it has to do with tendons and muscles. So to me that leaves the DQ for ring tail to cosmetics.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:47 pm 
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i agree that ring tail does reflect a muscle/tendon problem...however...a misaligned spine would contribute to hip issues in which our breed DOES have.....so you could correlate the long history of hip problems with docking as you would not know the spine had a problem...now i havent done the research but i might start....I wonder if all the dogs that do have a strong lateral deviation in their tail end up with hip problems later in their life....

ponder that....

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:37 am 
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Cindy wrote:
Does anyone have any data on the influence of animal rights activists on the ADRK's decision to stop docking? Or their influence on any other German breed (Boxer, Dobie, Schnauzer, etc)? Just wondering :) .


The ADRK was FORCED to end their practice of docking when it was OUTLAWED. There was NO choice in the matter.

http://www.cdb.org/countries/germany.htm

This law was forced into effect by animal "welfare" groups in Germany. The end of docking of breeds in Germany except under certain conditions, dogs used for hunting had NOTHING to do with any input by any clubs or dog groups EXCEPT THE HUNTING DOGS. The ADRK sat on their asses and let this happen.

And so now, every one globally is supposed to fall into lockstep with them because of this? BULL EFFING SHIT. The ADRK did not want this AT ALL. They had NO CHOICE. They tried to fight the law after it went into effect, UNSUCCESSFULLY.

This has been the sticking point for me from the very beginning. Just because Germany got bent over and raped by animal welfare groups does not mean that we in the US have to do the same.

My fervent hope is that docking is NEVER outlawed in the US, and that the ARC NEVER changes their breed standard, and that they never relent on their quest to preserve the Rottweiler as a docked breed.

Any game you play you have to play by the rules. The rules for the AKC breed ring are that Rottweilers are "docked short leaving one or two vertebrae". People who want to show dogs with undocked tails in the AKC breed rings need to SHUT UP and COWBOY UP and realize that more often than not they will be at the end of the line, or walked out of the ring.

I have no idea, never have been able to figure out why we should alter our standard to allow dogs who are not docked, yet at every turn there are more places where docked dogs are not allowed.

Looks to me like many people want to have their cake and eat it too. I suggest a picnic at a USRC event.

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:02 am 
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uhm....because its not necessary to dock......

Rebekah....give me one good reason to dock and you can't say standard......

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:59 am 
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You're right Rebekah. I should have worded by question differently knowing that the sole decision was not made by ADRK.

Quote:
This law was forced into effect by animal "welfare" groups in Germany.

What are the names of the animal "welfare" groups? How did they force it into effect?

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 Post subject: Re: ARC Tailed Dogs Judge Blacklist
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 11:26 am 
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Here is a statement from the council of docked breeds
http://www.cdb.org/countries/germany.htm



Here is another statement that I would like to point out as well...
Source: http://www.wsava.org/Taildock.htm

What is tail docking?

Tail docking today is the amputation of a dog's tail at varying lengths to suit the recommendations of a breed Standard. Docking involves the amputation of the puppy's tail either with scissors, a knife or with a rubber band. The cut goes through many highly sensitive nerves in the tissues including skin, cartilage, and bone. This procedure is usually performed without any anaesthetic at between three to five days of age. The procedure can be performed by either a registered veterinary surgeon or by an experienced dog breeder. In many countries veterinarians are declining to perform this unnecessary procedure, meaning that breeders are now docking more dogs.

Is tail docking painful for the puppy?

Yes, there is strong evidence that this is the case. The puppy has a fully developed nervous system and a well-developed sense of pain. While the puppy cannot tell us that it is in pain, many biological markers show that pain is occurring.

Why did tail docking start?

The practice of tail dockïng started hundreds of years ago, when people were far more complacent about the welfare of animals than they are today and it became common in the Middle Ages in Britain and Western Europe. Many theories have been proposed for the beginning of the practice; these include Tax evasion, Rabies prevention, prevention of back injury, increase of speed for the docked dog as well a method of prevention of tail damage due to fighting. Some breeds of dog and cat are born without tails or with stumpy short tails due to a genetic abnormality similar to Spina Bifida in humans. Normal littermates of these breeds were usually docked to make the breed conform to a uniform appearance. Welsh Corgis are a good example. The Pembroke Corgi is occasionally born without a tail or with a short stumpy tail and littermates are usually docked. The Cardigan Corgi on the other hand has a long bushy tail and the different requirements have been written into breed standards with time.

Does tail docking prevent tail injuries?

Traditionally, some breeders considered docked tails necessary, to fulfil the working function of the dog. Today many working breeds of dog are kept as house-pets. When tails are allowed to remain intact, there are no more tail injuries in breeds that are customarily docked than in other breeds of dog.

Can docking cause problems in later life?

There is considerable scientific evidence that docking can lead to complications, including occasionally death of the puppy. In later life the stump of the tail may be painful due to the formation of neuroma (nerve tissue scar) in the stump. This also occurs following amputation of limbs in people and causes considerable discomfort.

Do dogs need their tails?

Dogs have evolved into their current shape over many thousands of years. If a tail were not useful to a dog, natural selection would have eliminated it long ago. Indeed, tails have many useful functions and are important for balance and body language among other things.
Some breeds today have individuals that are occasionally born with deformed or short tails. This is a genetic abnormality, not usually found in the wild and is caused by intensive inbreeding of selected strains of dog to refine certain inherited characteristics.

Have any countries banned tail docking?

Yes, there are countries, which have banned cosmetic tail docking for a considerable number of years; Norway since 1987 and Sweden and Switzerland since 1988. Since 1991, Cyprus, Greece and Luxembourg have also introduced a ban. Tail docking has been banned in Finland since 1996 and Germany since May 1998. Political pressure was exerted in Germany to have hunting breeds exempted, however exempted puppies must be the offspring of parents that were specifically used as hunting dogs, not just hunting breeds. In spite of many claims to the contrary, there is no proof that an increase in tail injuries or serious health problems occurred as a result of the ban on tail docking in these countries.

In England, since July 1993, only registered veterinarians can perform tail docking. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has declared that the docking of tails, other than for therapeutic or prophylactic reasons, was unethical. The RCVS stated in 1996, that such docking is capable of amounting to conduct disgraceful in a professional respect, and described such docking as unacceptable mutilation.

In Australia, one State, the Australian Capitol Territory has banned tail docking. It is hoped that other States will follow this example.

Don’t you think that long-tailed Spaniels, Boxers and Rottweilers would look stupid?

Certainly not! In fact once people get used to seeing dogs with their normal tails, they cannot understand why the tails of these breeds were ever amputated in the first place. Try to imagine if the reverse happened, and breeds such as Labrador retrievers were docked. They too would look strange and you would wonder why the procedure was done.

Do vets enjoy amputating puppy’s tails?
No. The majority of veterinarians, through the WSAVA, condemn the practice. Many veterinarians refuse to amputate tails because of welfare reasons. Others refuse to perform the procedure because it is totally unnecessary and can lead to complications, such as haemorrhage, infection and even death. Some veterinarians continue perform tail amputation reluctantly in order to keep the procedure under professional supervision, please their clients and to minimise the suffering caused to the pups. If it were illegal, they would not be placed into this compromising position.

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Tommy Stark
von der Stark

Multi V-1, Multi Y. Sieger, BOB, BOG, NIRK Y.Ch. Konigliche Bhaji v.d. Stark CGC, RN, HIT(s), HIC, TDI, RTD, ARV BBT, CHIC #66928

V1 Rated, 2x BOG, r.BOG, First Choice v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1, RN, HIT(s), HIC, CGC, TDI, RTD, CHIC #65530

Multi V-1 First Class v.d. Stark BH, IPO-1 cardiac-normal, OFA "Good"

Multi V-1, 9x BOB Ara Brcko Star HD-A/ED-0 cardiac-normal *retired*

Imma von der Stark


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 Post subject: Re: Bhaji takes winners dog under Judge Vandiver
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:23 pm
Posts: 350
Location: Lucy Ang, Central California
Liz wrote:
There was definitely discussion going on - I just checked archives for rottie-L and there are hundreds of posts on docking back in 2000, including posts from people arguing against it. Lira was one of the first tailed US puppies I recall and she was born in September of 2001, so there had to have been SOME sort of discussion going on in 2000. The last litter we docked was born in July of 2002.

Liz


Don't forget what happened to the rest of Lira's littermates. :x

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Lucy Ang
Nightshadow Rottweilers


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